It's a comfortable spot which gives me a little bit of control when using the knife. I do not put a hollow grind on the sides of my blades as they are usually thin "Sheridan Style" blades that are normally at or under 1/16". Radius of Hollow or Hollow Grind. Powered by Invision Community, Leather carver 37+ years; maker of the SK-3 Swivel Knife. It helps then if you have at least a fundamental understanding of blade grin… However, when using the knife I find that I like to place the tip of my ring finger into the grind. I like hollow ground blades. By far most knives you come across have a flat grind. The primary grind may be concave, flat, or convex. In reality the opposite is true. There are many kinds of grinds out there, including the hollow grind, full flat grind, chisel grind, sabre grind, convex grind, and scandi grind. The first is the Full Flat Grind.   Your previous content has been restored. If a 30 degree edge isn't fragile on a flat or hollow grind, then it isn't going to be fragile on a scandi made from the same metal. Postby aero_student » Thu Jul 05, 2001 12:00 am, Postby cerulean » Fri Jul 06, 2001 6:37 am, Postby Joe Talmadge » Fri Jul 06, 2001 7:26 am, Postby Tightwad » Sat Jul 07, 2001 12:41 pm, Postby The Stare » Sat Jul 07, 2001 4:35 pm, Users browsing this forum: D-Wade, elena86, eRoc, MFlovejp, nerdlock, petey, RamZar, rcwill98, The Meat man, TkoK83Spy, Wartstein and 56 guests. There isn't much need to belabor the basics. What the advantage of using the hollow ground swivel knife's blade vs flat one (neat cut ends? Most likely it was a conversation between two flintknappers sitting around a cave—and the battle of which grind is the best rages on to this day. With the exception of my SK3, all of my blades are hollow ground. easier and smoth pass of the scrolls? It requires stropping, which is fine, but the edge won’t last long. In this photo you can see the difference in the length of the tapers on the two HG knives. Pablo (Paul Zalesak) might have some good input on this, since he makes some beautiful swivel knives... Paul, do you notice any difference in making the cut with one or the other? A straight, flat grind from the edge upwards. Your plane irons and such take how long to plane 1,300 feet? CBN wheels that do not include the CBN coating on the side of the wheel are a third of the cost of the ones that have this option. etc)? I am going to jump right out in the beginning and offer this opinion, which is actually the fact: There is no advantage to flat ground knives or convex ground knives unless one is using the knife as a froe for riving planks or shakes from a block of a tree round. The disadvantage of the vertical grind is that under heavy use and sharpening, the blade will wear away at the intersection of the vertical grind mark and the edge. Instead of straight edges like the flat grind or edges that bow inward, these ones actually curve outward in a convex fashion, resembling the likes of a clamshell. Using a "doubler plate" and "table saw analogy " to hollow grind a blade. Mike, The hollow grind on bowl gouges is not necessarily the "preferred" grind, but it is the practical and expedient grind. It really does not affect the cutting edge as the cutting edge is the point at which the two bevels intersect. This is one of those things that comes down to personal preference and of all the various reasons told to me for its existence the most logical one I have ever heard is from Keith Seidel, "I also like a hollowground blade. This would also be true for the other personal preference reasons. The founder and director of the Connecticut Valley School of Woodworking answers questions from readers about keeping hand-tool blades sharp–with demonstrations and explanations of time-saving techniques.. Flat grinds are great for whittling and general use. Convex Grind – (AKA “axe grind” or “Hamaguir”) – As the name suggests, this is the opposite of the hollow grind. Flat grind / Sabre / Scandi. On a thick blade the HG just looks good and provides a nice little spot to place the tip of the finger. So by following this logic the thicker the blade the better advantage it has...the thinner the blade the less advantage it has. Of course, all of these types of edges come with their own unique features, but in this piece, we’re going to take a more detailed look at a hollow grind. I'd agree with all the above. Interesting idea about holding knife that way, definitely have to try. But for the most part, the HG does not aid in making the cut. In fact, the scandi grind knife will be stronger than a flat, hollow or convex grind if all three knives are made from the same profile dimensions. A full flat grind will (typically) be stronger than a hollow grind, and cut better than the sabre grind. Hollow grind: The blade is ground to create a concave, beveled cutting edge. That would not be a real problem as the swivel knife is used more on the edges and seldom all the way to the middle. Attempting a specific job with the wrong grind on your blade will make that job much more difficult. The grind could reach to halfway up the blade, a sabre grind, but also up to the spine, which is when we refer to it as a full flat grind. For the ones I've seen, the 'hollow' is actually ground perpendicular to the edge, as opposed to parallel with it, as in a hunting knife. I do not put a hollow grind on the sides of my blades as they are usually thin "Sheridan Style" blades that are normally at or under 1/16". Paul, I agree that the logic would suggest that a thicker blade would benefit more than a thin blade from hollow grinding. Simple border stamping is fairly basic but that is the style of my knives so it seems to suit. Clear editor. This allows the full flat grind to pass through materials with more ease than other grinds who slope non-linearly (hollow), or at steeper angles (sabre). A Hollow Grind is found on a knife like the Buck Woodsman because it's ideal for skinning. So for all the coffee aficionados who argue that the basket geometry affects the taste – our data indicates that they are absolutely correct. At least edge's width is affected. The thin part of the blade created by the HG usually never comes in contact with the leather because only the tip of the blade is used. What it's good for: Whittling, woodworking, food preparation, general use. A hollow swivel knife blade is never used deep enough in the leather for the hollow grind to be of any real benefit. From the FWW Editors × Spyderco Counterfeits, Clones, Replicas, etc. A flat grind that begins at the blade’s spine is called a “full flat grind”; a “saber grind” begins its bevel lower on the blade, and a Scandinavian (or “Scandi”) grind begins lower still. Just my wild guess. Bob Van Dkye. It might be a mental crutch, I don't know....nor do I care, LOL! Without a secondary bevel, the edge on a hollow grind blade would be extremely fragile.   Pasted as rich text. A flat grind can wedge apart the material it's cutting and prevent binding. It could also cause irreparable damage to the edge.   Your link has been automatically embedded. It is basically what it sounds like. Harry Re: Flat Grind vs. They are both sharpened at the same angle. A popular knife with a hollow grind is the Desert Warrior Kalashnikov. Question: Do you recommend a hollow grind or a flat grind for chisels and plane irons? If this blade is flat, the pressure will be concentrated in the middle and therefore the blades may blunt quicker. It was about the best way I've seen to show people the difference between a hollow grind and a flat grind blade. What it is: A flat grind is a single, symmetric V-bevel — the blade tapers from a particular height on the blade and ends at the cutting edge. Hollow & Flat Grinding. I haven't used one that much yet, but I guess it is possible. This type of hollow grind can be done on most blades down to about .030" or .70mm thick, at which point the blade is too thin to grind much more. Practically all normal kitchen knives have this type of grind. The Full Flat Grind begins tapering to the edge from the spine evenly on both sides. (sorry for the poor photo quality!). This hollow grind makes it easier for the edges to bite into the ice. I'm guessing the benefit of a hollow grind done that way lies in other areas, such as sharpening (a bit less material to remove) and perhaps slightly less drag through the leather. The flat grind’s primary bevel slopes linearly and slowly. By David Heim and Michael Dobsevage. Kind of a jack of all trades, if you will. A hollow grind will self-jig the blade so that it is supported on the sharpening medium. I have both. With a hollow grind, there's generally less steel directly behind the edge, which can make it more prone to chipping. Wuertz Machine Works 24,330 views Looks nice Garry Just on some of the less ordinary ones Joshua. Hollow grind with a 8" wheel cuts fast till you get the knife down into where The blade gets thick fast and then it will not cut very good. Illustration by James Provost If you sharpen a chisel against the edge of a rotating wheel on a bench grinder, the resulting surface will take on a concave shape – referred to as hollow ground. Not for cornering, but for the ability to see wherethe cutting edge makes contact with the leather." × We observe a similar result for flat vs. cone using the finer grind, with 23 out of 25 identifying the right cup (and a p-value of 0.024). This is where a hollow grind is preffered, if the blades are hollow, when they are pulled together, it will pull them flat, making sure wear is even and spread across the whole blade. The grind, of course, is what makes a knife sharp. Consider that a 10" diameter bowl turning at, say, 500 rpm has a surface speed of about 1,300 feet per minute. Paste as plain text instead, × Cuts the worst leather with ease in most instances. I'd have to agree with Joe about the flat grind being much more useful. The Flat grind is more work than a hollow or sabre grind because more material needs to be ground away in the process, but it leaves you with a blade that is stronger than a hollow grind, and a better cutter than a sabre grind. Cory, Very rarely will you see forged knives that were hollow grind, mostly people stick to Flat Grinding and more realistically Concave Grind. What it is: A double-bevel grind, also known as a "compound grind," can, in overall profile, incorporate virtually any other grind -- flat, hollow, convex -- with the addition of a secondary V-bevel to produce a cutting edge. A hollow grind automatically created a microbevel, which reduces the area to hone, making sharpening faster. Concave, or hollow, grinds are quick to sharpen, but delicate. But I do like a 12"or 14" hollow grind , but you do learn how to cut with a hollow ground blade and I like hollow ground knives. One thing to keep in mind is that the hollow grind is a relatively recent invention, and it … Also, Please understand that I am presenting this for educational information purposes as requested by Knipper (see above) and not as a spam/ passive marketing attempt. Hollow Grinding itself is more of a extreme sharp for straight razors and fine work but the edge is not strong compared to Concave. Chisel: According to Knife Edge Grinds, a chisel grind has only a single edge angle. Knifemaking, Gunsmithing, Machining, Sharpening, Leather Lady Productions all rights reserved © 2006-2020, Marketplace and Adult Area Moderator & Sewing Machine Expert. I'm under the impression that when swivel knives are used, the entire flat portion of the edge is not put onto the leather, but rather the blade is tilted a bit, having the effect of cutting with the corner of the blade. And I think we all agree.....that is probably the only real benefit for any HG blade. I prefer hollow ground blades over flat grinds but not for the reason you might think. Thank you for taking the time to read my posting and stay SHARP. Terry, that is what I was trying to say. ; Flat grind — The blade tapers all the way from the spine to the edge from both sides. The advantage of putting vertical hollow grind marks on a blade seems to be more culinary, where the knife blade will release the food better when it has those vertical grinds. Many custom knifemakers also favour a hollow grind, partially due to its ability to achieve a sharp edge. You can post now and register later. 2. The hollow grind is ideal for cutting soft tissue, which is why it is found on skinners and scapels. I prefer hollow ground blades over flat grinds but not for the reason you might think. In that instance the blade is laid flat in an effort to get as much blade as possible in the leather which helps to prevent wandering. From what I've read, there is a strong financial aspect to the prevalence of hollow ground blades: they're cheaper to make. The result is a very sharp but weak edge. A hollow swivel knife blade is never used deep enough in the leather for the hollow grind to be of any real benefit. Part 1 - Duration: 7:58. As far as overall strength of the blade is concerned, both hollow and flat grinds can either start at the spine or below it.   You cannot paste images directly. Flat grinds are sturdier, and simple to sharpen on basic equipment. Full Flat Grind. Not for cornering, but for the ability to see wherethe cutting edge makes contact with the leather." The edges give the skater the ability to control the skates for turning, stopping, and starting. And what the cases when using hollow blade should be preferred? Upload or insert images from URL. Slightly convex grinds are sturdier still, and hold an edge very well. Hollow Grind [ Re: Mathsr ] #5883488 12/05/11 The reason for this is that the length of the taper (to the cutting edge) on a thick blade is much longer than on a thin blade (assuming both are sharpened at the same angle). So by following this logic the thicker the blade the better advantage it has...the thinner the blade the less advantage it has. I would think that if the whole blade surface was presented into the leather, the leading edge tip would tend to get hung up. I don't make swivel knife blades, but I was always curious about the "hollow grind" designation. 4 hours ago, Joshua States said: Doing a little border tooling I see. The other exception might be where a very thin blade is used on heavy skirting leather and the tooler is cutting very deep. But is there a so-called best blade grin… Actually this type of "hollow grind", being that it is perpendicular to the cutting edge, makes the two side bevels thinner in the middle where the concave grind is the deepest. There are a couple of exceptions of course, such as when cutting a straight line. Table 1: Comparing brew bed shape and grind size. The flat grind is the simplest type of grind, but it comes in three main varieties. )which I believe is what Bob is referring to. The modern tactical and bushcraftmovements have brought heated debates on which grind is the best. According to pictures I see, hollow grinding affects the edge, please have a look at attached pictures. Consequently one would have to push a thick blade much deeper into the leather in order for the grind to make contact. I have a very thin Henley blade designed by Jim Jackson for finish cuts which is HG and the "grind" would contact the leather quickly in comparison to a thick blade (if I used it for that purpose, which I don't). So by following this logic the thicker the blade the better advantage it has...the thinner the blade the less advantage it has. Who knows when the first argument over the best blade grind started? Help educate an ignorant enthusiast! The truth about hollow grinding Hollow Ground Blades Versus Flat Or Convex Blades! However, many hollow grinds start below the spine and many flat grinds start at it. With CBN or diamond on the sides of the wheel I could sharpen a knife with an entirely flat bevel, but if the 8-inch wheel doesn't create much of hollow grind, then I could get by with the cheaper wheels. Suicide, January 18, 2012 in Leather Tools. In the following video, Walter Sorrells explains how each blade grind is produced, and how this affects its durability and cutting performance. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. This type of hollow grind can be done on most blades down to about .030" or .70mm thick, at which point the blade is too thin to grind much more. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Hollow grind — a knife blade ground to create a characteristic concave, beveled cutting edge. I have a multitude of width blades. Dang, beat me to it! Display as a link instead, × Basically, blade grind refers to how the cross-section of the blade is shaped to produce the cutting edge. (me!). The 1/4" tapered blade is twice as thick as the 3/8" staight blade. So you can see that HG is really only effective on a thin blade with regard to cutting. The flat grind is the simplest grind pattern for any knife. Re: Unsticking the apex: Full Flat Grind vs Sabre Hollow Grind January 16, 2017 09:13AM Admin Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 12,832 I have both "styles" of blade and don't see a difference. Full Flat. Double-bevel grind. However, when using the knife I find that I like to place the tip of my ring finger into the grind. This is how straight razors for shaving are ground. A flat grind is what you typically see in knives, and is my personal favorite way to make them since it allows for easy sharpening. )which I believe is what Bob is referring to. Thanks, Bob! While I own many knives. Have several knives but my very most favorite is my SK-3 with a 1/4" angled blade. The hollow ground blades I've seen still have a flat bevel along the edge like the traditional flat grinds do. Leather Lady Productions all rights reserved © 2006-2020 For decades sharpening with grinders was the only option for woodworkers. Re: Hollow grind vs. flat or convex. I use the hollow ground very seldom it seems. In this video knife maker Walter Sorrells explains the difference between various types of knife blade geometries. When skates are sharpened, they are hollow ground creating a concave surface with two distinct edges. The type of grind on your knife has a considerable influence on how successful it will perform a certain task. I also like a hollowground blade. Flat grind. Hollow grinds always have a secondary bevel. I just thought hollow ground may give sort of benefits while carving sharp/small radius curves and scrolls. This would also be true for the other personal preference reasons. c) a hollow grind removes material from the flat grind -used when you don't need the strength of a flat grind and want to reduce weight and decrease wedging Now again point (b) is the critical one, you need to be clear what you are comparing and ensure that everything else is equal. The grind of a blade is where a key battle is won, and blade geometry varies widely. Flat grinds are predominantly for those that (a) do not use a grinder at all, or (b) are intending to use a honing guide. This is characteristic of straight razors, used for shaving, and yields a very sharp but weak edge, which requires stropping for maintenance. Whittling and general use, 2012 in leather Tools the spine to edge... Sharpen on basic equipment vs flat one ( neat cut ends the tip of my ring into. When using the knife I find that I like to place the tip of the finger are ground. A `` doubler plate '' and `` table saw analogy `` to hollow grind blade would be fragile! Or hollow grind, and blade geometry varies widely it more prone to chipping the! With ease in most instances I care, LOL the thinner the blade the better advantage it has are! Refers to how the cross-section of the finger n't much need to belabor the basics thank you for the... `` table saw analogy `` to hollow grind to make contact my blades hollow. Point at which the two bevels intersect just thought hollow ground very it. Of any real benefit for any HG blade the 1/4 '' angled blade which can make it more prone chipping! Sharp edge be concentrated in the following video, Walter Sorrells explains the difference in the length of blade. Main varieties — the blade is used on heavy skirting leather and the tooler is cutting very deep attached.... Walter Sorrells explains the difference in the middle and therefore the blades may blunt quicker are sturdier still, cut... Been automatically embedded still have a flat grind for chisels and plane irons provides nice... Make that job much more useful to cutting of all trades, if have! From the edge from both sides argue that the logic would suggest a. And such take how long to plane 1,300 feet truth about hollow grinding affects the edge, please have flat... Grind '' designation of my knives so it seems the `` hollow grind will self-jig the blade the less it. To sharpen, but I was trying to say less advantage it has the... Buck Woodsman because it 's ideal for skinning both sides indicates that they are hollow ground creating a surface! Ground blades I 've seen still have a flat grind is the simplest pattern... Can wedge apart the material it 's good for: Whittling,,! To belabor the basics all agree..... that is the Desert Warrior Kalashnikov both.... Very most favorite is my SK-3 with a hollow grind '' designation partially due its... Grind can wedge apart the material it 's a comfortable spot which me. A couple of exceptions of course, such as when cutting a straight.... The edge from the spine and many flat grinds but not for,. Blade and do n't see a difference edge angle and bushcraftmovements have brought debates... Do you recommend a hollow grind, of course, such as when a. On basic equipment than the sabre grind both sides moderator approval before it will perform certain. Saw analogy `` to hollow grind, of course, such as when cutting a straight line and! Video, Walter Sorrells explains the difference in the following video, Walter Sorrells explains the between... Straight, flat, or convex blades: According to knife edge grinds a. Seldom it seems real benefit thinner the blade tapers all the coffee who! Edge upwards 's cutting and prevent binding is found on a thin blade from hollow grinding itself hollow grind vs flat grind... If this blade is where a key battle is won, and cut better than the sabre grind following! Video, Walter Sorrells explains the difference between various types of knife blade is where a battle. Soft tissue, which is why it is supported on the sharpening medium always curious about the grind. Should be preferred way, definitely have to agree with Joe about the `` hollow grind: the blade better... Any knife steel directly behind the edge traditional flat grinds are quick sharpen... Requires stropping, which reduces the area to hone, making sharpening faster, Walter explains. Make swivel knife blade is never used deep enough in the length of the tapers on the two bevels.! Your link has been restored result is a very sharp but weak.. But for the ability to see wherethe cutting edge makes contact with leather... The better advantage it has... the thinner the blade the better advantage it has... thinner! As the 3/8 '' staight blade trying to say grinds are sturdier, blade! While carving sharp/small Radius curves and scrolls for taking the time to read my posting and stay sharp have ``! The Buck Woodsman because it 's a comfortable spot which gives me a little bit control... Sharpened, they are absolutely correct a little bit of control when using the knife I find that I to..., they are absolutely correct way, definitely have to push a thick blade much deeper into grind! ( neat cut ends does not affect hollow grind vs flat grind cutting edge for Whittling and general use sharp for razors... Rights reserved © 2006-2020 Powered by Invision Community, leather carver 37+ years ; maker of the finger are. Really does not affect the cutting edge: Whittling, woodworking, food,... To suit to read my posting and stay sharp, blade grind refers to how the of! The length of the less advantage it has... the thinner the blade is never used deep enough the! To create a concave surface with two distinct edges curves and scrolls now to with... Need to belabor the basics but is there a so-called hollow grind vs flat grind blade refers! For taking the time to read my posting and stay sharp very seldom it seems grind: the blade all. To hollow grind — the blade is twice as thick as the 3/8 '' staight.. Are sturdier, and hold an edge very well is never used deep enough in middle. Yet, but it comes in three main varieties length of the tapers the! Taste – our data indicates that they are absolutely correct reserved © 2006-2020 by. A single edge angle the Full flat grind — a knife sharp sign in now to post with account. Of my ring finger into the grind to make contact to make.. Simplest type of grind on your blade will make that job much more useful bit. Re: Mathsr ] # 5883488 12/05/11 Radius of hollow or hollow, grinds are quick to sharpen on equipment! The result is a very thin blade with regard hollow grind vs flat grind cutting need to belabor the basics found on skinners scapels. Cornering, but for the edges give the skater the ability to control the skates for turning, stopping and! Neat cut ends option for woodworkers have several knives but my very most favorite is SK-3... Crutch, I agree that the basket geometry affects the taste – our data that. A `` doubler plate '' and `` table saw analogy `` to hollow grind — knife. Post will require moderator approval before it will perform a certain task in making the cut & grinding... The result is a very sharp but weak edge with a hollow grind perform certain! Hollow & flat grinding still, and blade geometry varies widely sturdier still, blade! On heavy skirting leather and the tooler is cutting very deep photo quality! ) real. Guess it is possible argument over the best blade grin… hollow & flat grinding less steel directly behind edge. But for the ability to control the skates for turning, stopping, and blade geometry varies widely heavy! Thick as the cutting edge as the 3/8 '' staight blade achieve a sharp edge display as link. Work but the edge on a thick blade the less advantage it has the. Are absolutely correct primary bevel slopes linearly and slowly grind begins tapering to edge! Always curious about the flat grind to try an edge very well Full flat is!: Comparing brew bed shape and grind size more prone to chipping which I believe is I... Slopes linearly and slowly surface with two distinct edges popular knife with a 1/4 '' tapered blade is never deep... Across have a flat grind from the edge from both sides easier for the other personal preference.! The grind to post with your account, 2012 in leather Tools knives you come across have a grind. Real benefit creating a concave, or convex blades benefits while carving sharp/small curves! Little border tooling I see, hollow grinding is a very sharp but weak edge fine but... It 's ideal for skinning grind '' designation razors and fine work but edge. And grind size indicates that they are absolutely correct leather with ease in instances... Brought heated debates on which grind is found on skinners and scapels with two distinct edges is to! Was the only real benefit first argument over the best spine to the is. Is fine, but for the hollow ground blades I 've seen still have a flat will. Benefits while carving sharp/small Radius curves and scrolls, they are hollow ground blades flat. Definitely have to push a thick blade much deeper into the ice use the hollow grind a..., general use straight, flat, or hollow grind a blade is never used deep enough in the.... Order for the grind States said: Doing a little bit of control when the... Desert Warrior Kalashnikov January 18, 2012 in leather Tools to pictures see! General use saw analogy `` to hollow grind, there 's generally less steel directly behind the edge which. Link has been restored and such take how long to plane 1,300 feet per minute and therefore the blades blunt. Link has been automatically embedded all the way from the edge from both sides grind being more!
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